Mark Fiore always gets it dead-on. Here’s his latest, State-run Sacrament:
The Yes on 8 people should be proud they “protected traditional marriage” for bigamists, adulterers, spouse-abusers, death-row inmates and other such fine, upstanding citizens. My hat’s off to the bigots and their noble anti-gay crusade.
Feast your eyes on this billboard put up by Missiongathering Christian Church:
From their Blog:
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With the passage of Proposition 8 in California banning gay marriage, the Church has successfully taken away the rights of a group human beings…the first time this has ever happened in the state of California. Yes, it was accomplished through the political system, but it was the conservative church that started the movement. While Missiongathering Christian Church is part of the Church (all churches in the world), the conservative churches who started, funded, and propelled Prop 8 do not speak for all churches. Some Christians do not speak for ALL Christians. We as a church feel called to be a new voice of Christianity.This “issue” has begun to create some division within the Church, but that conversation will always be there and will likely take decades to find resolution, if it ever does. Our concern is the ever-widening gap between the Church and the LGBT community and its supporters. With the campaigning and passage of Prop 8, that gap is widening at an even faster rate. Gay and lesbian men and women who may have been open to the message of Jesus, heterosexual people who support the LGBT community who may be seeking faith and spirituality now have seen the Church exclude a group of people based on their sexual identity in the name of God. Why would they want to have anything to do with a God like that? It’s not an “issue;” it’s people
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Somehow I don’t imagine the people running those other churches want us to “have anything to do with a God like that”. They just want us to submit to their will and remain crushed under their boot heels. “God” is just the weapon they use. If we kowtow to their god in the process all the better for them–to keep us in line.
As a leadership team, we spent a lot of time wrestling with the words to use in writing this statement. We realize that many will take offense to the wording, but strong words are needed in a time like this. As we look at the life and ministry of Jesus, we see repeatedly where He would use strong words to rebuke the Pharisees and Sadducees when they would use religion to exclude the outcasts from participating in the story of God: hypocrites, foolish, unmarked graves, white-washed tombs, brood of vipers. The most memorable, of course, being when Jesus turned over the tables of those selling animals and changing money in the temple courts who, by doing so, were barring many from participating in worship. Jesus responded with righteous anger.
We are not saying that all people who voted yes on Prop 8 are narrow-minded, judgmental, manipulative, or deceptive. Individuals are entitled to their convictions. When one’s convictions are acted upon someone else against his/her will, the act takes on a different quality. The word “actions” was used specifically because the act of voting yes on this measure was narrow-minded and judgmental. The actions of the proponents of Prop 8 were manipulative and deceptive in their use of misinformation, half-truths, hyperbole, and the gross exploitation of children and fear to advance their cause. These actions, done in the name of God, took away the rights and equality of thousands of California men and women.
All I can say is thank you, thank you, thank you Missiongathering Christian Church. It’s high time the RRRWers were taken firmly to task for their hijacking of God, Jesus and Christianity by members of their own faith. This is something people like myself have been waiting for.
The RRRW continually insists that the way to fix everything is to infuse god and religion into everything. The world has become immoral and left god behind, they claim, and that’s what is responsible for things like higher crime rates, abortions, teen pregnancies, divorce rates, etc. But let’s look at real world situations rather than extrapolations. From Phil Zuckerman:
Proposition 8 passed because of religious folk. There is no question about it. Church-going Black Americans, tithe-paying Mormons, mass-attending Latinos, and Evangelical whites all joined forces in “protecting marriage.” The underlying reason religious people voted to revoke from gays and lesbians the legal right to marry is doggedly theological: God doesn’t like it. And when a society or culture does things that God doesn’t like, that society or culture will suffer. This is a central tenet of every religion, and has been ever since the first shaman first claimed to be able to discern the will of the Almighty by examining the patterns in a bowl full of crushed berries.
And it simply isn’t true. If God punishes societies that violate his commandments and rewards those that do, this just isn’t apparent by looking at the state of the world today. The sociological fact is that the most irreligious nations right now are among the most successful, humane, moral, and free, while the most religious nations tend to be among the most destitute, chaotic, crime-ridden, and undemocratic. A similar pattern also holds true within the United States: those states and counties that boast the greatest numbers of strong believers and regular church attenders tend to have higher poverty rates, child abuse rates, violent crime rates, and lower educational attainment rates than those states and counties characterized by more secular populations.
Consider the nations of Scandinavia specifically. These countries are noteworthy because they were among the first nations to make abortion legal and readily available and they were also among the first nations (along with Holland) to allow for gay marriage. Indeed, gays and lesbians have been able to wed in these countries of Northern Europe for nearly 20 years now. And what is the state of society in these relatively irreligious nations, where weekly church attendance is among the lowest in the world and belief in God is markedly thin? They lead the world on nearly all indicators of societal well-being. From economic prosperity to low crime rates, from equality between men and women to excellent child welfare, from life expectancy to low rates of H.I.V., the relatively godless (or at least God-indifferent) nations of Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Holland suggest that secularity - and acceptance of gay marriage, specifically — doesn’t bring down the wrath of God at all. And yet when we look at the most religious nations in the world - especially those that severely condemn homosexuality, such as Iran, Angola, and Mauritania — we see extreme poverty, high violent crime rates, oppression of women, dictatorship, warfare, corruption, etc..
Where is the best place to be a mother and raise children? According to the latest Save the Children Report, it is relatively godless Sweden. The worst? Extremely Godful Niger. How about murder rates? Highly religious Columbia leads the globe, while highly secular Japan is near the bottom. What about strong economies? According to the World Economic Forum, of the top ten nations boasting today’s most competitive economies, nine are relatively irreligious (the USA being the sole exception). According to the latest Global Peace Index, the top five most peaceful nations are simultaneously among the most secular, such as Denmark, which ranks in at #2. Even when it comes to suicide rates, it is the former Soviet nations that lead the pack, some of which are fairly secular, but most of which are quite religious, such as Lithuania.
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When it comes to God and the acceptance of gay marriage, the religious supporters of Proposition 8 certainly have a right to their opinion. But that doesn’t make their opinion right.
Now some interesting facts from a study by Gregory S. Paul published in the Journal of Religion and Society:
The United States exhibits typical rates of youth suicide (WHO), which show little if any correlation with theistic factors in the prosperous democracies (Figure 3). The positive correlation between pro-theistic factors and juvenile mortality is remarkable, especially regarding absolute belief, and even prayer (Figure 4). Life spans tend to decrease as rates of religiosity rise (Figure 5), especially as a function of absolute belief. Denmark is the only exception. Unlike questionable small-scale epidemiological studies by Harris et al. and Koenig and Larson, higher rates of religious affiliation, attendance, and prayer do not result in lower juvenile-adult mortality rates on a cross-national basis.
…..Although the late twentieth century STD epidemic has been curtailed in all prosperous democracies (Aral and Holmes; Panchaud et al.), rates of adolescent gonorrhea infection remain six to three hundred times higher in the U.S. than in less theistic, pro-evolution secular developed democracies (Figure 6). At all ages levels are higher in the U.S., albeit by less dramatic amounts. The U.S. also suffers from uniquely high adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, which are starting to rise again as the microbe’s resistance increases (Figure 7). The two main curable STDs have been nearly eliminated in strongly secular Scandinavia. Increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator, and negative correlation with increasing non-theism and acceptance of evolution; again rates are uniquely high in the U.S. (Figure 8). Claims that secular cultures aggravate abortion rates (John Paul II) are therefore contradicted by the quantitative data. Early adolescent pregnancy and birth have dropped in the developed democracies (Abma et al.; Singh and Darroch), but rates are two to dozens of times higher in the U.S. where the decline has been more modest (Figure 9). Broad correlations between decreasing theism and increasing pregnancy and birth are present, with Austria and especially Ireland being partial exceptions.
…..In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly.
…..If the data showed that the U.S. enjoyed higher rates of societal health than the more secular, pro-evolution democracies, then the opinion that popular belief in a creator is strongly beneficial to national cultures would be supported. Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life” that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.
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So why are we still being denied equal rights because some people’s “deeply held religious beliefs” claim we’re not worthy? The facts clearly show that where religion rules society is in peril.
That’s blindingly obvious in most of the comments to the piece California in contempt? Figuring out the constitutionality of Proposition 8 in PolitickerCA.com .
Adam812
I thought that laws were made by governments. Government in a democracy that is voted in by the people. And the people have spoken in their vote. As far as the laws go, is it not the duty of the courts to interpret those laws rather than rewrite them?
The court never rewrote any law. They merely interpreted the state constitution and determined that there was nothing in it that prohibited same-sex couples from having the same rights as opposite-sex couples. Then along come the bigots screaming about “activist judges” and next thing you know we have Proposition 8 and our rights are gone before we have a chance to blink.
daniwitz13
Gays say that they do not hurt heterosexual marriages, but consider that if gay marriages become legal, when any person was to say that they are married, no one will know to what gender it is. They will have to ask, male or female. Or you will have to tell the other person what you’re married to. The meaning of marriage would be lost and cannot be used to describe marriage. Theoretically gays are wanting to get into marriage that’s not there any more.
That’s a real winner. I’ll bet danwitz13 is also upset if s/he has to explain to someone else what race/ethnicity s/he’s married to since people can marry outside their race now. Blame those Activist Judges on the Warren Court for that one.
wowza
What seems to not be protected in this is the voice of the people–and the property and rights of those who voted for prop 8. The aggression of the “gay” community is outrageous. Hate speeech on their side toward religious or black people is apparently OK.
I do not understand, though, Why is this equal protection issue? And how is this denied to gays? They can pass property to each other via personal corporations or wills–just as “married” people and families do now. They can have powers of attorney drawn declaring the partner can speak for them in a medical situation–just as straight families do now. They can declare their love…by all means!
What is being denied under the law? Marriage is something that from the beginning of time was between a man and a woman. This isn’t about “hate” (and I resent someone telling me that it is). It’s about sticking to marriage as it has been known throughout time–through the founding religions of this country. I’m assuming some wisdom in this pattern, yes. Note the voting trend of people with CHILDREN voting for upholding marriage between man/woman in California and elsewhere.
Wowza obviously has no concern for truth or equality. Not only do Powers of Attorney not even come close to the rights and protections offered by marriage (domestic partnerships don’t equate either), but they’re significantly more expensive and require much more effort to obtain. Why should we be forced to go to a lawyer, spend thousands of dollars for stacks of paperwork and renew it constantly (then still worry about it not being respected) when opposite-sex couples can get everything with a $90 marriage license?
What is being denied under the law is equal rights and it’s wrong. “Separate but Equal” never was and never will be no matter what fancy language you dress it up in.
Don’t even start with that nonsense about “the children”. We have children, and plenty of children are gay. We’re sick to death of your children being used as pawns in this game to eradicate our rights while you ignore our children and the LGBT children as if they didn’t exist. Just come out and admit it’ about you and how much you hate gay people. Be honest for once.
And once again, religion does not own marriage no matter how much it tries to claim it does. Never has, never will.
SteveW
Children are at issue. The homosexuals want to impose their will on all of Americas’s youth. They seek to have their message spread to any age…the younger(uneducated) the better for them to spread their poison. Further, how will adoption agencies deal with this issue when homosexual couples apply to adopt children and continue the mutation through unsuspecting, insecure, adoptees. This learned behavior of homosexuality is grossly sinful and should have never been decriminalized in eyes of society. It is most certainly not an entitlement. The homosexuals will not stop until they infect most of society and infiltrate as many families as possible….consider the homosexual movement from 10 years prior, effectively; non existent in the public eye. Now, the mutation in CA has spread like wildfire. Complete lawlessness in the streets of San Francisco. They have homosexuals running the entire City. If we do not act against this movement as a nation, it will be forthcoming to a neighborhood near you very soon.
I am predicting the next civil war over this issue. If they are successful, they will be able to convey the gay message through educators in schools instructing our children that it is acceptable to mate with the same sex. In fact, why not suggest that mating with any animal or species is acceptable? Our children are with the educator the same amount of time as they are with the parents. It will lead to a major confrontation at the schools and spill over to society when parents are faced with keeping their children at home or subjecting them to the poison. Schools will be forced to teach the curriculum or suffer loss of federal and state funding.This is a four-headed demon monster that must be terminated at the core. It is overreaching into multiple facets of our lives.
Wake up America. This is your call to act.
Fact check. We’re not dragging kids to indoctrination centers (churches) from infancy on. We’re not the ones who can be found outside schools thrusting New Testaments into the hands of students. We’re not the ones going door to door prostelytizing. We are not the ones recruiting children–religionists are.
If you want your children to grow up in a vacuum where they’re never exposed to anything but anti-gay rhetoric you can homeschool them or send them to a private school. Eradicating the rights of an entire class of people because you’re a bigot is not an acceptable substitute.
Honestly, it’s getting to the point I wonder if I’m in California or somewhere deep in the Bible Belt. Then again, it’s entirely possible that the Bible Belt has expanded and engulfed nearly everything outside of New England.
And that’s a thought that terrifies me to my very core.
From WhiteKnot.org :
The white knot is the new symbol for marriage equality. It takes two traditional symbols of marriage—white and tying the knot—and combines them in a simple way to show support for the right of gays and lesbians to marry. All loving couples deserve the same legal rights, benefits, and respect that civil marriage bestows
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Wear your white knot to work, to school, to your place of worship. Celebrities will be wearing white knots down red carpets this awards season. Together, we will keep the topic at the top of people’s minds and keep the conversation going.
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Make your own knots (instructions at the link) or you can get them from WhiteKnot.org (supplies will be available shortly). I know I’ll be picking up a supply of white ribbon within the next few days to make knots for myself and to give out!
Radical Homosexual Activist:
rad⋅i⋅cal ho⋅mo⋅sex⋅u⋅al ac⋅tiv⋅ist
Am. Eng. Late 20th Cent.
A gay person who has the audacity to demand equal rights from people who shouldn’t have the authority to withhold them in the first place.
Thus ends today’s vocabulary lesson.
They’re apparently not content with eradicating our constitutionally guaranteed marriage rights. They want to harm us for having the audacity to exercise our First Amendment rights as well. Of course I’m not the least bit surprised. I’ve known for a long time that it’s not just marriage equality they want to destroy, but every semblance of rights GLBT people have managed to get in the United States. Marriage rights are but one step in the process. But the fact that we’re refusing to take this latest assault lying down–that we have the audacity to not quietly obey what they consider a divine edict–has driven them into a frenzy.
post Today, 03:14 PM
Post #100Newbie: Without form, and void
Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 8-August 07
Member No.: 6348I’ll post this here, too.
If you are a Californian who voted “Yes” on Prop 8, you better start organizing and march on the California Assembly with hundreds of thousands of angry protesters, and scare the living daylights out of them, or they will surely betray you.
Maybe some of them can be “scared straight”
This post has been edited by SeekerB: Today, 03:22 PM
Oh, really? What exactly do these practices of scaring the living daylights out of and scaring straight involve? If they’re anything like Mormon Mason’s ideas I know I won’t like them.
Bring on the persecution…lock and load, baby! My years supply of Ammo is ready…!
Then there’s Brian Terrill. Brian, you’re pretty stupid using your real name on your blog and when you post death threats to other people’s blogs:
“We have a responsibility to follow the scriptures and the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin. Be grateful we don’t take care of it Old Testament style if you catch my drift.”
Yeah, we understand a death threat when we see it. So how are things over there in Sacramento, Mr. big-muscled dork? (FYI, in addition to hating Teh Gays, Brian also dislikes fat girls and thinks that the US ban on polygamy is an infringement of his “freedom of religion”. It’s also an infringement on his “freedom of religion” to not allow him to kill us pesky gays, apparently. )
And the 20+ threats to Gloria Nieto. I wonder how many of them come from Mormons who think that by making death threats they can scare us back into submission. Make us lay down and take their buying of the California constitution like paid whores. 
I don’t think so. This has gone too far now and we’re not backing down. So here’s a message to the Mormons. Stop with the threats. They’re not going to get you what you want. Unless what you want is to be exposed for being the thugs that you are–and any legal repercussions that might come of it.
A final note. Since some of you are suggesting we gays “come to the Bible” might I suggest you peruse my Bible Study for Christians who Voted Yes on Proposition 8. I’ve already been to the Bible, you see. But I think some of you have missed rather critical parts of it.
This also goes for all of those who voted in any form of anti-gay legislation. Believe it or not there are more than six verses in the Bible. It’s actually a rather large book. I thought I’d expand your minds a bit. Here are some of the verses you may have never read and, at least from what I’ve observed, certainly do not live by.
Matthew 7:1
Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Matthew 7:9-12
“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 25:40
The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
James 2:4
Have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?
Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
Romans 2:1-2
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.
1 Thessalonians 4:11
And to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you.
Now see if you can actually use the Bible to guide your own lives instead of as a weapon against others.
It can be done, you know. I did it for 20 years.
Protesters, ACLU ruin our reputation (so says Robert Strong)
I am getting tired of hearing about and seeing all of these protests about the passing of Proposition 8. We are a government “Of the People, For the People, and By the People.” Supporters of Proposition 8 used the system the way it was meant to be used. So, if it angers anyone that it passed, why waste energy with protests? Aren’t they capable of getting a measure on a ballot? Or do they not attempt another ballot measure because they fear the outcome? Are they taking a shortcut by yelling in the streets and acting like idiots?
To begin with, that ballot measure should never have happened. Human rights are not something to be put to a popular vote. Anybody who disagrees should be the first to put their rights to “the will of the people”. Next, Mr. Strong would you consider these people to be “acting like idiots”?
Furthermore, they are yelling at the Mormon Church, for crying out loud. I have seen posters from protesters stating “Separation of Church and State.” How can they ask for separation of church and state when they are demanding to be addressed as a “married” couple, knowing the term “marriage” comes from religion? I’m not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I at least know that it is not the root of the issue.
Marriage does not come from religion. Religion (Christianity in particular) likes to claim it owns marriage, but it doesn’t. Marriage has existed around the world in every culture both within and without religion. It has been between a man and a woman, a man and multiple women, a woman and multiple men and even people of the same gender (yes, same-sex marriage has existed historically). The “one-man, one-woman” marriage hasn’t existed since time immemorial as much as some would like to have us think.
Marriage is a civil contract. Brigham Young himself said that. Millions of people get married every year without a single tie to a religious group, without the aid of a clergy person, without reference to any deity(s). People need to face the fact that not everybody gets married in a church, nor do they need or want to. Likewise the approval of a church is not required for people to get married, though many churches think they have the right to determine who can get married.
Likewise, I am getting mad at groups such as the ACLU for supporting an effort to overturn Proposition 8. The ACLU’s very name — American Civil Liberties Union — implies that it stands for civil liberties for all Americans, right? Apparently not, if it supports the overturning of Proposition 8. A majority of voters exercised their civil liberties by passing the measure. To step in and violate voters’ civil rights for a second time only invites people like me to further exercise my civil liberties and file a class-action lawsuit against them for violating my rights as a voter.
Knock yourself out, Robert. I’m sure they’ll be laughing along with me. If you consider eradicating the constitutionally guaranteed civil rights of others one of your civil liberties you have serious issues. But go ahead and file that class-action lawsuit.
The ACLU got away with this a few years ago with Proposition 187. How it has managed thus far without going bankrupt from being sued for violating civil rights and liberties is beyond me.
Ah, so you’re a racist as well as a gaycist. I’ve noticed they tend to go together. Now I know. You would have said MLK and those who marched with him were “acting like idiots”.
Grow up, Robert. Your fantasy world where only straight white Christians exist is just that; a fantasy world.
Church groups supporting Proposition 8 say they voted to ban gay marriage in California, but did not target any group.
Let’s see. Proposition 8 read:
ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME–SEX COUPLES TO MARRY. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.
* Changes the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California.
* Provides that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.
Please explain to me how that is not targeted at any one group. Of course my brain is not a pretzel so I can’t figure it out, but perhaps one of the pretzel-brains can explain to me how ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME–SEX COUPLES TO MARRY doesn’t target one group.
No. H*ll no. We’re not your sheep whom you can direct like Stepford-wives. We are not going to do whatever you say just because you tell us to. (Yes, I know that scares the stuffing out of you but deal with it.) You will no longer shame us into submission by wagging your fingers and saying we’re naughty. You’ve gone too far and we’re not going to take it any more.
Videos are beginning to show up on YouTube. I’ll add to this collection as I come across them.
This first one was provided by leftionthenews:
Two of two by 2345625678882 :
